Curse

WNxTyphoon · Mar 04, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I miss gambling for gems and selling each one for like 8 times what you paid to gamble for it.

*sigh* Oh days of E34E, where have you gone???

I really like Aladdar's idea, give that man a cookie! (but then take it away for having Khalid's picture as an avatar, I hated that guy).

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 04, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I think the SoC method would be better improved if you could use it on anyone... people, minor enemies... etc. Maybe that would make it too easy to get the skills, but I dunno... like someone said, I often see more enemies with the skills that I want, rather than the bosses.

The only skill I've ever captured was Fragility... it looked better when the enemy was using it, lol.

Aladdar · Mar 04, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I just think they should drop the soc method completely and improve the other ideas they've got.

I like the skill traders and the rings and necklaces. Let's work around that and finding broken rings and gems off the bosses. I'd like that much better.

Sausaletus Rex · Mar 04, 2005, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoon

I miss gambling for gems and selling each one for like 8 times what you paid to gamble for it.

That was sure nice. At least until the bottom dropped out of the market on the last day or so. But, by then I'd scored a few thousand gold, so what did I care?

No, the real joy of the gem system was that 9th slot. Always loved the flexibility and options a mechanic like that added. As well as, you know, the whole purpose of being able to actually test your skills before you used them. That's kinda important, isn't it?

It's not just the SoC, though. It's the whole skill acquisition system. Gems were beautifully elegant and simple. They let the casual player just pick up what they needed, they encouraged players to trade and foster an ecconomy, and they gave people a reason to PvE without forcing anyone into it. If you didn't have the time to farm for gems, you could just drop the cash and buy some. And at the same time they were a quick and easy way of telling what a skill would do for your character as well asthe addition of an interesting little wrinkle for those willing to spend the effort on things.

There were, of course, problems with the system. The 9th slot broke symetry, the gem drops were completely random yet some skills dropped far too frequently, and low-end gems flooded the system and clogged everything up. Hell, I was giving things away or dropping them on the ground by the end of E3. And more beyond. But there were some distinct strengths of things.

What we have now is a hodge-podge of half-measures that have increased the difficulty and complexity of learning, trying, and trading skills considerably. The gem system was centralized, there was only one way of doing things. Now, each system is stronger in their individual areas but it fails to hang together as a whole. And that's considering that things like skills not being available to capture or from the gambler are things that should eventually be fixed.

What the system does, of course, is to force people into the rings or the trainers. SoC is interesting, driving people into PvE, giving them a reason to replay missions, and flavorful but ultimately forgetable. Unless you carry around an SoC it doesn't matter to you. And an SoC lessens the strength of the rest of your character by sucking up a valuable skill slot for something you might or might not use. Bosses spawn randomly when you start a mission and you can't trust that the one you want is there, even if you know which one you want. And a boss might not even try and use the particular skill you want. You might also settle for one skill you wanted only to continue along a mission and find a boss that has a skill you've been dying to find. On top of that, in order to capture a skill you have to counter-intuitively not kill a boss but to keep them alive while waiting for the right skill to come up and then hope everyone on your team has the same goal in mind. It's just too disruptive and cumbersome to the normal flow of the game. It's flavorful, sure, "skills come from bosses" but it leads to odd design decision like halving hex and condition times on bosses or subtly upping their health so that they can survive long enough to be captured from. When the game's breaking its own rules in order to accomplish something then there's a problem.

Why only bosses, for that matter? Why, when some random monster uses a skill, can't we capture from that? Are they doing it slightly differently? Why does that Char Mesmer boss cast their skills in a different way from their Mind Spark bretheren? But, no, unless a monster is marked off as a boss you can't learn any skills from them.

The skill trainers are nice, of course, you spend your money, you get the skill you want. There's no randomness, there's no variance, a trainer has the skills a trainer has and if you've got the want, the money, and the skill points, you can walk off with all of them. The problem, of course, is that you have no idea what you're buying. All you have to go on is a skill description and we all know how accurate those can be. You have to burn a skill point and some money and then head somewhere else just to see if that skill's one you might like to keep on your skill bar or not. There's no trial period, there's no way of telling what a skill *actually* does - in a battle, in a mission, with your attributes, and your tactics - without actually buying it. A further problem is that not every trainer has every skill. Some developer has decided which skills that trainer will have and that exerts a distorting effect on things, just as set starting skills do. Someone's decided that starting Elementalists will like Fire, so Fire gets placed on the trainers in the starting zones and the other elements get crowded out. If you want to play another element you'll have to pick through the leavings or wait until you reach the trainer that does have Water or Air or Earth. Or, someone's decided that a particular skill, like BiP should be rare, so it's goign to be in a hard-to-reach place if it's available for purchase at all. But, since it's a linch-pin of a lot of strategies then everyone who wants BiP - or whatever other skill you'd name - has to trudge out to that trainer in order to acquire that skill. It becomes a quest to get that skill and some people might not want or be able to complete that quest. The developers are crafting the game, sure, but they should be crafting it so that it's the players who are deciding what they want to play, not a character's level or the maps and party available to them.

The charm/ring system is worst of all. On the surface it should provide for a great opportunity for players to raise money for themselves by having and crafting those skills that are rare and either selling them or trading them with other players. Rings, too, because rings only work for certain professions so when you have one you don't need, you can raise some profit from it, too. It fosters and encourages players to trade and for an economy to develop. Players trade, players talk, people get to know each other, fun ensues. In theory. In practice, the best charms, the ones you'd want to craft and trade are extremely rare. You'll hve to gamble for them, and the gambling merchant is a pricey prospect. You might get lucky, you might drop thousands of gold pieces to get what you're looking for. I know, personally, people who've blown 20, 40, 50k gold on the gambler over the BWEs. But, if you're in a guild or another large organization, then if someone knows that skill you can get it crafted for the cost of materials, if that. The charm merchant gets full of the skills that are readily available meaning you'll never make much profit selling them those charms, yet the rare charms are snapped up at ludicrous prices. A group of connected individuals doesn't have to deal with all that because they'll pool their resources and their skills. The average player has most of that crafting and trading well out of reach but the established, high-end player won't ever have to trade for need, just for want. The rich get richer while the poor are left starving. The onus should be on the high-end people to pay through the nose for increasingly diminishing results, not for the average player to pay more and more for less and less. Rings, too, widen the gulf because they're also rare to get a hold of. They encourage people, not to trade, but to farm like mad in order to get one in the first place.

And the fact that they don't cost a skill point is most damning of all. Skill points are the major thing your character will have once they pass level 20. They're an accomplishment, a reward, for "leveling" further. However, they mean nothing when you can go and learn skills without spending any. Getting, earning, using skill points should be the heart of the skill acquisition system. Sure, let people temporarily learn skills all they want, but in order to keep one permanently, it costs a skill point. That gives the collectors, the treadmillers, something to shoot for as they gain 150 odd levels and collect each and every skill. That gives people who've hit lv20 something more to do as they try out new strategies and skills. That makes people who've played longer more diverse and powerful because they'll have more skills to pick from. Instead, how well-rounded your character is becomes a matter of just how many rings yu can pick up. Or that your guild can pump into your PvP character or ready-made. There should be easy ways of switching characters and trying new things but there should also be a reward, an incentive, to stick with just one.

Lunarhound · Mar 05, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

I liked the gem system as well, though it had its problems. Capturing, I can do without, at least as it's currently implemented. I'm not looking forward to the time I'm going to have to spend getting certain skills that I want from bosses. It might be somewhat enjoyable if I could be certain the boss was going to be there, but as it is, it's just a hassle.

As for trainers, I like them, except for not being able to test out a skill. I loved that about the gems. Besides offering a very straightforward way to get certain skills, though, I also like the trainers because I like the idea of questing for certain skills. For example, making a certain skill available only from the old hermit who lives on top of some remote mountain, or the retired warrior who lives in some little village somewhere.

Here's my thought: Bring back the gem system, to a point. Allow certain skills to drop randomly as gems again, but certain skills (maybe elite skills?) to be available only from particular trainers. In addition, have the trainers sell gems, rather than skill rings like they do now. Not only would this allow the testing of skills again while keeping the trainers, their price could be refundable if you decided that you didn't want it.

That's just my own opinion, though, and I haven't really taken a lot of time to think it through. I'm sure there are problems with it.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 05, 2005, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

Ok, I don't understand how going to a known mob (you don't have to kill) in a known place that has the skill you want more grind than having to kill a mob that MIGHT drop the skill you want, which MIGHT have your name on it? I am trully befuddled.

Edit: Also Bots are only valueble when time is a very significant factor. As you mentioned that it requires no AI and you can get it done so fast, there is no point in botting. As for Gems goes, you need to keep trying till you find that gem that you want. Trying takes time and this is where bots will difintely help them.

So PvP is grind and PvE isn't? PvE is simple, PvP requires a lot more time and requires player skill, so due to your logic PvP must be mass grind?

WNxTyphoon · Mar 05, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Grinding is basically doing what you need to do to reach the stage where you can have the most fun.

Basically.

It differs between people: Some people like creating new characters while others only like the endgame.

Anyway, I think the way they the skill obtaining system now is better (overall) than the Gem system.

I wouldn't really mind if it went through a complete overhaul though.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 05, 2005, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Grind: The art of doing something boring that requires no skill.

The gem system did not fall into this category, as it was insanely fun and required a lot of skill.

The SoC system falls into this category, as it is the anti-fun, and requires absolutely not one shread of skill.

Barkam · Mar 05, 2005, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Kuntor your definition of grind is different from mine's. We have been using two different definitions of grind from the very beginning which makes all our arguments before pointless. I will reiterate my question as to not depend on the definition of "grind" in the gaming community.

Which method takes less time to successfully obtain your desired skill?
Method 1. Running to the known boss in the known area where you don't have to kill the boss. (SoC method)
Method 2. Having to kill a boss that MIGHT drop the desired skill and MIGHT have your name on it.

I would assume Method 1. takes a lot shorter time to complete in average than Method 2 for obvious reasons.

Greentongue · Mar 05, 2005, 03:48 PM // 15:48

The positive thing with using the SoC system is that it doesn't require much money.

Questing for skills to me is a positive aspect of the game. People who don't wish to do that, can still get the skills through charms. The rarity of rings is the only issue I can see with the charm method. If rings can be crafted by specific vendors then that issue is resolved as well.

The use of Skill Points should be a sufficient governor, that it wouldn't matter how a skill was acquired. I don't understand the logic of allowing ANY method of skill acquisition that doesn't require a Skill Point.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 05, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkam

Kuntor your definition of grind is different from mine's. We have been using two different definitions of grind from the very beginning which makes all our arguments before pointless. I will reiterate my question as to not depend on the definition of "grind" in the gaming community.

Which method takes less time to successfully obtain your desired skill?
Method 1. Running to the known boss in the known area where you don't have to kill the boss. (SoC method)
Method 2. Having to kill a boss that MIGHT drop the desired skill and MIGHT have your name on it.

I would assume Method 1. takes a lot shorter time to complete in average than Method 2 for obvious reasons.

Well so far the chance of having a boss using the skill you want (for SoC) is near 0. The gem system (don't know if you experienced it) would drop rare gems often enough to keep you very interested. I remember the Jungle mission (I think) had some necro ranger snake boss which would drop really nice gems, but was fairly difficult to kill at the time. We kept playing it over and over because not only was it tough, but we were getting cool gems to try out.

The whole "might" have your nae on it doesn't really apply so much as you point out. First, the more skilled the player, the less people he needs to wax a boss. Secondly, most if not all of us have something called friends, and if you hunt with friends, and they get a drop you need, they'll just give it to you.

Barkam · Mar 05, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

You didn't explicitly answer my question, and still waiting for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Well so far the chance of having a boss using the skill you want (for SoC) is near 0.

Why woiuld it be 0? Most of the skills, that can be found on bosses, has been documented by most fansites and even by your friends/guildmates. If your goal at that moment is for you to attain that specific skill, you can just look up in those fansites and head for that specific area with that specific boss. If you are referring to the situation in which you are just doing a PvE mission. Having a SoC and finding a boss that has a skill you can use is just a bonus. You're goal isn't there to find a specific skill, your goal there is to complete and enjoy the mission, which is not the point of my posts. Those factors that you are adding in such as fun, has got no bearing in the amount of time in which you can successfully attain a specific skill which you desire at that specific moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

The gem system (don't know if you experienced it) would drop rare gems often enough to keep you very interested.

I have not experienced the Gem method, but I have enough information from you guys for me to run a specific comparison between the two methods, which is the speed in which you can attain a desired skill. (If i am wrong please correct me.)

Anyways back to the point, my goal in the specific moment (comparing SoC method and Gem method) is how fast can I successfully obtain that desired specific skill. I don't care about how interesting it is to finally get my rare gem. I don't care how cool looking the boss is or how interesting the fight was. That isn't the point of the comparison of the two methods. The point is how fast i can do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

I remember the Jungle mission (I think) had some necro ranger snake boss which would drop really nice gems, but was fairly difficult to kill at the time. We kept playing it over and over because not only was it tough, but we were getting cool gems to try out.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this sounds like a lot more time than just using a SoC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

The whole "might" have your nae on it doesn't really apply so much as you point out. First, the more skilled the player, the less people he needs to wax a boss. Secondly, most if not all of us have something called friends, and if you hunt with friends, and they get a drop you need, they'll just give it to you.

Point taken. However this doesn't still take away the probability or lack there of for that boss to drop the specific gem that you desired, which requires time.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 05, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Which method takes less time to successfully obtain your desired skill?
Method 1. Running to the known boss in the known area where you don't have to kill the boss. (SoC method)
Method 2. Having to kill a boss that MIGHT drop the desired skill and MIGHT have your name on it.

The answer to your question is not easy, take for example, the only time difference between the actuall run-to-boss-get-skill process:

1) Even though you do not need to kill the boss, you need to stand around and wait till it uses the skill. Now you must leave the mission. You cannot capture multiple skills, and most bosses are a long long way away from the start.

2) Even if you go solo, bosses do not take long to kill, and you can kill multiple bosses per trip. There is usually a lot of bosses near the end making each trip worthwhile. In one trip you can easily take in 10+ gems, atleast 1 will be rare to the gem trader (based on the gem success of E3). Though E3 proved going tag team style (you and a friend) made the skill gem system really fun. Plow through missons, get cool rewards.

Since you didn't experience the gem system, you'll never really understand just how godly it was. I guess I'll describe it as best as possible:

-In E3, bosses were actually hard to kill. It wasn't that they had higher hp's, they were actually smart and used tough skills against your groups build.
-Each boss would drop 2 gems from it's primary class and 2 gems from it's secondary class.
-You had what was known as a 9th slot. If you double clicked any gem from any class, you temp learned that skill for 5-10 minutes. After usage gem's would de-colour and weren't usable anymore, but still learnable.
-Gems expired 3 hours after dropping, which means you only had the 3 hours to test them.
-Gems lost no gold value if you tested them out
-The Gem trader would give you gold for your gems, or sell your gems for gold that other players sold to the trader.
-The Gem trainers would let your permenantly learn a skill, for the cost of a skill point.

Basically they took a perfect skill system (argument of the 9th skill slot aside) and wrecked it. Just like they took a perfect pane system and wrecked it with bags.

Since E3, they've added a lot of cool stuff to GW. But they've also completely destroyed existing cool stuff that everyone liked and no one complained about.

Anet, for some reason, has a tendancy to "fix" things that aren't broken, which we all know is a bad quality for a company to have.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 05, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I think it's really hard to say how GOOD a particular system was/is before it's been in use by a large player base for an extended period of time.

Sure, for a weekend, the Gem System was amazing, but maybe after a while, it would totally devalue something or who knows what. Maybe the current system has a better shelf life? I really can't say or even guess... It's like the current "item" market... who knows what will happen once the game's released and you have a large amount of players all scurrying around with their own agendas etc.

I still agree with Saus when he comments on the logic of not being able to capture skills from normal enemies. I'd even like to capture skills from other players on PvP combat (although, that might be a little too easy). Sure the SoC method is a pain and I would keep it in my skill bar not because I was looking for a particular skill, but it was just there just in case I was lucky and stumbled onto a boss who had something that I didn't.

I think there will always be room for improvement, regardless of the system.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 05, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

It's would've been far easier to tweak the existing gem system for balance/economy issues, then rebuild and implement a non-complete capture system. The capture system is far from perfect and they've left it as-is since implementation.

Anet must realize if something is liked, they're probably not going to see any feedback on it. If something is disliked, you'll get a lot of feedback on it. So generally, if no one's really talking about something, we can assume it's well liked throughout the community. The gem system and pane system are fine examples of this.

Anet is also stubborn. Instead of returning to a previous mechanic that was working just fine, and liked throughout the community, they continue on with their new system which is flawed and unliked by many. They're developers have their noses a little to high in the air to admit something they tried failed, like the bag system, and resort back to the previous method which they should do. Instead, they attempt minor changes to it untill they fluke a system which a small percentage of the player base will like, and at that point they can convince themselves that the choice they made was the correct one.

Infact polls on the bag system show that not many like it, and the majority thinks it utterly sucks and want the old system back. The logic behind the old Pane system generating 0 feedback shows that it was liked through out the entire community. However due to certain individuals and their stuck up attitudes, the old system will never come back. We'll be left with mediocre changes to the worst idea ever untill they move on to ruin something else.

Dreamsmith · Mar 06, 2005, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

Since you didn't experience the gem system, you'll never really understand just how godly it was. I guess I'll describe it as best as possible:
...

Good grief -- and you consider that a better system? As bad as the current system is, it's an improvement over that.

The problem with the current system is the lack of predictability. As long as there's some way to get the skill that I want, I'll happily take on any challenge required to obtain it. The problem is when the only way to learn the skill I want is to kill random monsters with the hopes one will drop a skill ring of the right type, then gamble randomly at the exotic skill charm trader until she offers the skill I'm looking for. I may or may not get what I'm looking for after killing X monsters or visiting the trader Y times -- no matter what value you choose for X or Y, it may get me what I want or it may all be in vain, and worse, get me no closer at all towards my goal since it's completely random. Any random system leads to pointless, frustrating grind. If I enjoyed that kind of thing, I'd be doing Meph runs right now.

The way to fix the skill system is to make sure every skill in the game is available from some trainer or some boss, preferably some trainer. Place trainers in interesting, remote places (the old hermit in a hut past the herd of lightning drakes knows some interesting tricks) if we want to keep certain skills harder to obtain. But for crying out loud, get rid of the luck in what is supposed to be a game of skill if you don't want that to be a hollow claim.

Whether it's gems or rings, randomly dropping things you need to complete a particular build leads to pointless frustrating grind of the worst sort.

Brett Kuntz · Mar 06, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Good grief -- and you consider that a better system? As bad as the current system is, it's an improvement over that.

The problem with the current system is the lack of predictability. As long as there's some way to get the skill that I want, I'll happily take on any challenge required to obtain it. The problem is when the only way to learn the skill I want is to kill random monsters with the hopes one will drop a skill ring of the right type, then gamble randomly at the exotic skill charm trader until she offers the skill I'm looking for. I may or may not get what I'm looking for after killing X monsters or visiting the trader Y times -- no matter what value you choose for X or Y, it may get me what I want or it may all be in vain, and worse, get me no closer at all towards my goal since it's completely random. Any random system leads to pointless, frustrating grind. If I enjoyed that kind of thing, I'd be doing Meph runs right now.

The way to fix the skill system is to make sure every skill in the game is available from some trainer or some boss, preferably some trainer. Place trainers in interesting, remote places (the old hermit in a hut past the herd of lightning drakes knows some interesting tricks) if we want to keep certain skills harder to obtain. But for crying out loud, get rid of the luck in what is supposed to be a game of skill if you don't want that to be a hollow claim.

Whether it's gems or rings, randomly dropping things you need to complete a particular build leads to pointless frustrating grind of the worst sort.

You've never experienced the gem system, so saying the current one is better doesn't really fly high. So far everyone who's posted on the subject over the months, that's played E3, says the gem system was far better.

There's more luck in the SoC system then any other system GW has. Skill rings have a 0.001% or less chance of dropping, the exotic trader requires grind just for the chance of getting skills, and bosses randomly spawn with only one profession.

The "randomness" in the gem system was balanced, there were no real "rare" skills, and getting doubles of a gem was a rareity in itself. Most of the gems I recieved often sold for 25+ gold, because they dropped in a balanced fashion.

The SoC system is garbage, plain and simple, no if's and's or but's.

WNxTyphoon · Mar 06, 2005, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunt0r

You've never experienced the gem system, so saying the current one is better doesn't really fly high. So far everyone who's posted on the subject over the months, that's played E3, says the gem system was far better.

There's more luck in the SoC system then any other system GW has. Skill rings have a 0.001% or less chance of dropping, the exotic trader requires grind just for the chance of getting skills, and bosses randomly spawn with only one profession.

The "randomness" in the gem system was balanced, there were no real "rare" skills, and getting doubles of a gem was a rareity in itself. Most of the gems I recieved often sold for 25+ gold, because they dropped in a balanced fashion.

The SoC system is garbage, plain and simple, no if's and's or but's.

The Gem System was only good because I exploited it for thousands of gold...

Seriously though, I see the SoC system as a step in the right direction. It might not be the best system, but it works.

The thing about the SoC system is that you'll probably be able to buy any skill you need off of friends. The amount of usage that the SoC will see will fall dramatically after a few months and it probably won't make a difference.